more on relationships

This blog has gotten a barely extreme makeover, with the Blogger redesign, much better aesthetics, easy on the eyes, and even built-in commenting! :) Since our last episode, Christine had gotten married, and djchuang had celebrated his 9th anniversary. Perhaps we'll pick up the conversation again after Christine's honeymooning period wanes.

posted by DJ Chuang @ 6:54 AM 0 comments

Should trust also be included in the 'formula' for "depth of relationship"? Transparency + vulnerability + dialogue + trust. If we define it as such, I don't think it's a possibility within the context of a church fellowship- especially a large one. Even with small groups, I haven't seen much deep relating. What is one supposed to do? You can't exactly say, "hey people...please start deeply relating with each other? Take off your masks....overcome your fears." I know people desire it, but how does it happen?

Would you say that deep relating occurs outside of fellowship? That it is in part a function of context? For example, deep relating would occur if there are fewer people in a more intimate setting more conducive to sharing. I also think that deep relationships scare some people. A person shares too much, and the rest of the group feels a little uneasy. They think, "Why didn't this person share this privately, rather than corporately?"

You're definitely not the "stereotypical" extrovert. :) It's interesting to note that most stereotypical extroverts aren't deep relaters. It's the otter versus retriever (Trent & Smalley's Two Sides of Love) dichotomy although I know it could happen.

posted by Christine @ 4:05 PM 0 comments

I'm not sure it's a statistics, but anthropologists + sociologists (probably more the latter than the former) often acknowledge that American culture is vastly more (even, the most?) individualistic than other cultures (African, Latino, Asian) that are more communal.

This concept of "depth of relationship" is partially different for different cultural contexts (and different personalities; btw, culture I think of as a corporate personality, where as personality is usually a term used of individuals), and here's what I run into in this arena of conversation, is that I think of myself as a deep relater, and for me that means transparency + vulnerability + dialogue, but what I hear from some Asians (who are more traditionally Asian) say that [Anglo] Americans are comparatively more superficial and shallow than Asians, all that they talk about is sports and weather. (yeah? and Asians only talk about food, academics, and family gossip) And I'm thinking to myself, how many Asians can I count on my one hand, who would be willing to conversationally go to places of weakness + doubt + honesty + relate deeply??!!!?! Asians are so burdened with saving face. What I've been able to piece together is that Asians value "deep relationships" as those that have longevity, formed over years of being together, not necessarily talking about deep things, but showing loyalty and commitment and non-confrontational.

So my thinking (at this moment) is that personality [both corporate and individual] can be shaped innately or by the social context and/or family of origin.

While I think the mythical average person might only have 1 or 2 deep relationships, I don't at all say that's good. I think that's descriptive of people's fear + holding back + holding out. I know for myself, I can have more of them, I don't feel drained by people, but that's me. (some call this being extrovert, but people who base their assessment of me on first impression don't think that b/c I may not be as loquacious as a stereotypical extrovert, so it takes more open-mindedness to know me, rather than to size-me-up-and-dismiss b/c I don't fit in a conventional conformist box) To have more deep relationships is not to risk watering down (watering down is a choice a person makes), nor is having more deep relationships cliquish or gangy -- cliques/gangs aren't what you and I would call deep relating.

posted by DJ Chuang @ 5:39 AM 0 comments

You are quite the funny one, DJ. Yes, let's do coffee some time. :)

I did not know that statistics show that Anglo-Americans are more individualistic and isolated than other ethnic groupings. We had an older Anglo couple attend our church for the past year. Just recently, they've decided to leave because they felt they never 'belonged' in our fellowship. They said that they were unable to form deep relationships with us and thought it was cultural (ironically enough, they shared this during our discussion on the pros/cons of having a multi-ethnic church...Ambassador was mentioned as one church that strived for multi-ethnicity). A point was brought up that the lack of depth in relationships wasn't necessarily a by-product of our culture. It was just indicative of our particular fellowship. "Just because we look the same doesn't mean we're close and hanging out and having deep relationships" was the reply from one of our own. So what is your take on depth of relationships & culture? Do you believe the stats? Could it be more about in-born traits and upbringing rather than culture?

If most people have the capacity for 1 or 2 deep & honest relationships, shouldn't we just settle for that as 'good'? Because you make mention that having any more might water down the depth or risk having the relationships become cliquish or gangy.

posted by Christine @ 11:51 PM 0 comments

some of the most raw and deep-seated emotions + affections are fear, and trust.. how do I find time for more than 1 or 2 deep & honest relationships? I don't have that many more! :( they're few and far between.. and if there were many more, I think the tendency is to become cliqu'ish or gangy, and thus water down the depth of the relationships.. it's my hunch that within an Asian culture that values face and outward appearances, it would be that much more difficult to drop the mask, and be real, and deep, and transparent, and honest, with ones strengths and weaknesses, fears and courage, struggles and joys.. not to blame it all on that cultural disposition, but it's an obvious factor.. b/c in Anglo-American culture, to compare, the depth of relationship isn't all that easy to come by either, even tho' the culture promotes self-expression and free speech, it doesn't necessarily engender relational depth, and in fact, statistics show that Anglo-Americans to be more individualistic and isolated than other ethnic groupings, cf. the book "Bowling Alone", and the comparatively smaller wedding sizes..

I personally don't think it's "suggestive" for a woman to initiate doing coffee.. let's do it some time soon :)

posted by DJ Chuang @ 7:38 PM 0 comments

You have brought up some very good insights into the quality of relationships and what prevents people from achieving that type of relationship--> namely, fear. Taking a look at my own church fellowship (a place where we're supposed to have depth and vulnerabilty), I find that we haven't achieved 'quality' relationships with each other. It's as if we are all wearing a 'mask' or at least being whom others 'perceive we ought to be.' Instead, I am most 'myself' with my significant others and my close 1 or 2 friends (and other close friends to varying degrees). Part of it is fear as well as lack of trust. I don't know the people in my fellowship well enough to know whether I can *trust* them with my deepest feelings/thoughts. Will they tell others outside the group? Will I be judged? Will I be seen as 'weak' or 'odd'?

So how does one manage to have more than the typical '1 or 2' deep & honest relationships? Where do you find the time? :)

My list of characteristics for a good man and/or woman....hmmm...probably very similar to yours. I'd also add 'a good name' (in other words, they are well-spoken of by all kinds of people). They would be a person of integrity, humility, sincerity, and a teachable spirit.

A random question (which came up in fellowship): Would you consider "suggesting" by a woman to be an act of initiative? Example::"Hey, would you like to go and get coffee some time?"

posted by Christine @ 12:41 AM 0 comments

I'd be curious to hear your list of characteristics for a good man and/or good woman.. as we're talking about relationships, I do think the quality of those relationships are depth, vulnerability, honesty, known and being known, accept and being accepted, celebrate and being celebrated.. yes, they're found in the deepest and closest relationships, but they can also be found in growing circles of relationships as well, tho' not everyday interaction, and not conversations at the water-cooler; what I am saying is that quality relationships doesn't have to be limited to only one or two super-tight ones. Here I'm probably pushing a little bit, b/c I have the capacity for more than 1 or 2 deep & honest relationships, whereas the average person might only have the 1 or 2. Certainly one would hope and pray that the marriage relationship would be of this quality, but that's often elusive and quite a battle that many don't survive (either divorcing, or resigning to a roommate-like marriage, or staying together for the sake of the kids).

What prevents people from openness and transparency, depth and honesty? Many reasons, everyone has their own; most commonly I think, it's some category of fear. Fear of being rejected for being less than perfect, fear of what the other person will think if they knew the worst, fear of being hurt, fear of not knowing how to handle the truth about the other's brokenness. Many other fears to do with pride, reputation, approval, competition, et al. John Powell wrote a pretty popular book, "Why Am I Afraid to Tell You Who I Am", and he explained it as: I am afraid to tell you who I am, because if I tell you who I am, you may not like who I am, and it's all that I have. And I think over the course of time, I might have to say that some people don't have the capacity for revealing themselves in an open & honest manner, having never seen it, don't know what it looks like, uncomfortable with psychological categories & introspection, and just have never gone there themselves, much less to invite someone else to go there, to go deep, vulnerable, and honest and raw.

posted by DJ Chuang @ 5:44 PM 0 comments